baby stroller protest at the high cost of child care
Over the last month or so, social protests have erupted all over Israel. They started with the Great Cottage Cheese Crisis and snowballed from there on to protests about the high cost of housing, whether to buy or to rent, to the extent that tent cities have sprung up around the country. To top it all off, today there was a “baby-stroller protest” by parents against the very great cost of child care.
I have refrained from blogging about this social unrest until now because – despite the “opinionated” name of my blog – I’m not sure what to make of these protests. I’m not saying they are not justified; I simply wonder “Why now?”. What triggered these protests at this particular time? Am I being paranoid in thinking that there might be parties at work cynically trying to bring the government down?
I definitely agree that the price of food – not just cottage cheese – is ridiculously high in relation to the level of the average Israeli’s wage. The supermarkets and stores need to stop being so greedy and bring down their mark-up price.
An Israeli protest tent city
Similarly, the cost of housing is enormous. House prices are beyond the reach of most Israelis unless they have parents to help them out. Even in Judea and Samaria, generally thought to be a lot cheaper than the centre of the country, prices have risen beyond the reach of many young couples. Rental prices throughout Israel have gone through the roof (if you excuse the pun); avaricious landlords will keep raising the price until they are left holding on to empty apartments. New housing is almost all “luxury” apartments. I see very little to no housing for young couples or singles, i.e. small two- or three-room apartments without all the luxurious accoutrements that raise the price, for example state of the art kitchens, marble floored lobbies, gyms and saunas.
As for the cost of child care, that too makes it almost impossible for working mothers to – well, go out to work. Places at subsidised child-care centres are at a premium and if you are not lucky enough to nab a place for your child, you are at the “mercy” of private nurseries, which although they provide excellent care, cost the better part of a whole salary.
The Jerusalem Post discusses PM Netanyahu’s ideas for solving the housing crisis, and says that those who dismiss his proposals should come up with a solution of their own rather than just bashing the government.
Arutz Sheva is of the opinion that the housing protests are being whipped up by the Left in order to begin a new election campaign, after protests for the release of Gilad Shalit, and the “cottage cheese” protests didn’t take off.
Ynet reports that the Likud leadership is being unnerved by the protests.
Haaretz talks about the ultimatum presented to the government by the labour unions that they must come up with a solution or face the full force of the unions.
UPDATE: Alex Joffe has a very good piece in Jewish Ideas Daily, “No room in Zion”, in which he describes the history of the development of Israel’s housing, from the very first settlements (including my hometown of Petach Tikva), through the development towns and up to the settlements of Judea and Samaria after 1967. He describes the solutions proposed by the government and explains how any solution lies in the long term. Be sure to read the “relevant links” in his sidebar too.
Israel Matzav has two very interesting articles about the social protests. In the first, Israel’s Arab Spring, Carl discusses an article from the LA Times about the protests. He then goes on to bring examples from his own household and they make for rather unnerving reading.
His second article, “Is the New Israel Fund behind the protests?” ties in with the Arutz Sheva article I linked to above, and with my own uneasy gut feeling that I also mentioned above. The Hebrew video in his post depicts leftist protestors who, whenever a housing solution is found, find a reason to deride it, proving that they are not really interested in a solution.
Similarly, The Muqata asks “Where is Israel’s Middle Class?“. He writes that the average middle class Israeli is not be found in the protest tent cities. These are staffed by New Israel Fund activists, and he brings a Hebrew video with mini-bios of the main protest leaders, all of whom have a direct connection to the NIF.
In answer to all the housing problems, the Muqata comes up with the solution that has probably occurred to many of you: Massive construction in Judea and Samaria. This would enable many young couples and students to move there, thereby freeing up more housing in the central region and as a result bring the prices down.
A win-win solution in my opinion – but is anyone in the government listening?
I would love to hear your ideas in the comments.
Anne's Opinions 
Called Cloward and Pivin in the U.S. A tactic used by ………………, useally by friends of the Saul Alinsky family. Fill in blank and follow the money!
Welcome to my blog John and thank you for your comment. I’d never heard of Cloward and Pivin. I had to google them. It’s an interesting thought, if rather unnerving.
Hi Annie! We have a similar problem in the states, except the “poor” are subsidized by the government for homes. Most working young couples cannot afford to buy a home, and rents are high. Groceries are sky-high.
John hit the nail on the head. Social unrest has greatly increased here, and I have a feeling it’s about to get a lot worse.
Hi to you too Lady Red! It’s a problem whichever way you look at it. Either you have your situation in the US as you describe, or you have hyper-capitalism, or perhaps hyper-liberal capitalism that we have here. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. I just hope that both countries find the golden middle way before our systems totally collapse. The UK and Europe are in much the same boat.
I agree that at least some of the unrest is politically motivated. After all, at least in Israel, the worsening economic situation for the middle classes has existed for decades, even when socialist/leftist governments were in charge. So why the sudden attack on Bibi just now?
Thanks Anne, Love your blog.This is an excellent survey of the social unrest phenomenon.
I am thankful that I live in a country where protest is possible and I agree that there are many injustices in price hikes.Last night’s news showed us protestors wearing sparkling white printed T shirts, who is paying for this?? Check out those snazzy, gleaming prams (baby buggies ,strollers).
I am wary of the carnival atmosphere and designer chic tents.It looks like entertainment for hot summer’s days and nights backed by people interested in embarassing the government. Interesting that no discussion of these protests is scheduled for the Knesset timetable
Thank you for your comment Otmoor and welcome to my blog.
You raise very interesting points, specifically that the protestors seem to be of the “radical chic” persuasion. I had noticed that too, hence my unease at the protests, or at least the timing, even though the core message is correct.
The economic problems did not appear overnight, or even on this government’s watch, so where were the protestors in years back?
To Annieinpt – re your blog.
To me it seems that the housing situation is not new and so far the Israeli citizen has been most
phlegmatic and said : “Zeh ma Yesh !” In other words they lived with the situation. However in
relative recent times, and from the time when Labour was still in power, followed by Kadima
and now with Likud, prices have not only crept up but bounded up. The various Governments
needed money to finance themselves and their various organisations, both governmental and
non-governmental, in addition to paying off political parties in order to have a safe coalition. Thus
money raked in by the Lands Administration, the taxes on Gas, the increased taxes on properties,
etc., primarily go to feed the government. Why does Israel with 7 million people need such a huge Government administration, with Ministers, deputy ministers, secretaries, their cars, their
drivers, their phones, etc etc. This eats up the money. At the same time the Governments,
and I refer to all the governments that were in power during the last ten years didn’t give a
“tinkers cuss” to the income of the population, ie. the doctors, the nurses, the teachers, the
police, etc etc. As long as the top dogs of these organisations got their share of the pie, all
was quiet and went well. However, all this only goes for a certain time, and there is no doubt
in my mind that this social upheaval will turn into a resounding revolution, which if not addressed
IMMEDIATELY, will cause physical fighting and bloodshed. I would not wish to be in the shoes
of any Government officer or NOGs – they will make daisy-food.
Importing milk products will not reduce prices. Nor will it bring houses. Reduction of taxes is
a no.1. project which has to be addressed today. No.2 housing starts must start immediately
irrespective of what the “greens” will say. Building must start immediately in Yehuda and
Shomron and to hell with Ehud Barak and his comments, and also to hell with the Abbas and
his crew as well as to hell with Obama, Clinton et al.
Just imagine, if Barak, Meretz, etc want to have Yehuda and shomron cleared out, where will
the honourable Ministers put 250,000 people living there ? On the Moon ? In their own houses
or in their own backyards ? Can you, Mr.Public, see this ? Of course not. But all of them
are guilty, they should be punished severely for their neglect over the years.
Remember, a similar social revolution started in Russia in 1917, and what we got was a
Marxist/soviet government – this has to be avoided here, otherwise it is the end of Israel and the
Zionist dream.
Wow! Excellent comment Mr O’Prager! I think you’ve covered all the issues exhaustively. I find your insight into the causes of this “revolution” very interesting. I hadn’t considered it in those historical terms but you’ve definitely got a point.
My accountant boss was called in to advise a Knesset panel on taxation reform some years ago. He suggested a flat 10% tax across the board, explaining that citizens wouldn’t need pay rises because they would be left with more money in their pocket. On the other hand the gov’t would bring in more revenue because with that low rate of taxation people wouldn’t bother to evade tax. But my boss was called an “economic terrorist” and his plan ignored. It was stupid of the gov’t then and they haven’t gained any more sense since.
If they had only implemented his plan, even in a moderated fashion, popular unrest would not have occurred to this degree now.
if the government would do as your boss says life would be better for all as well as forcing rents down & then more would rent therefore house prices will fall , of course as well as building in the ” disputed territories” . This is the punishment for the building freeze.
As for the working mothers- they are right, something needs to be done to make it worthwhile for them to return to work (on the other hand how many of these people including students have travelled all around the world spending their hard earned money instead of saving for the future as we did).
The important thing I think is to close the gaps between the middle & lower classes’ income as the poorer are eligible for all sorts of help (not that they get it always & why should they be forced to beg?) & the wealthier don’t need help, but everyone in between can’t get social security or grants for studies or housing rights & also the financial burden of the poor falls on them. If they make education free from age 3 months on, the parents will complain that there aren’t enough carers per children (I know what I’m talking about as we already experience this) or they’re not “learning ” enough etc. This is also very much a “me ” society & “I’m entitled to it” feeling – it’s time to stop that too.
The whole thing exploded a few years ago when hi tech workers became the new “rich” & bought houses, cars holidays etc & then (after having looked down their noses at lesser mortals) complained that they would lose their houses when the bubble burst (they should never have been allowed such enormous mortgages) & that pushed prices up & they haven’t dropped since. Now their younger siblings who want to live like them can’t afford to, hence the strikes by the students. (We know of many case like this).
As you say Paddy I’m glad I’m not in the government as there’s not really an easy solution. We’re all fed up of working hard for very little appreciation and even less of a wage -or a wage that doesn’t go as far as it used to.
Reality, That’s a good point about the housing bubble and its connection with the hi-tech bubble. It’s like the Israeli version of the American sub-prime mortgage crisis. The problem is also simply shortage of housing – partly because of the building freeze in the shtachim and partly because we have a rapidly growing population and the gov’t puts so much bureaucracy and taxes in the way of development.
Let me pitch in with my penny-worth. Historically, in Israel, the only things that have bought down prices (and incidentally improved quality of products ) is opening up the market to competition and privatising government supplied services. Examples are Bezeq losing its monopoly firstly to overseas calls, then to local calls, Elite chocolate and coffee, Health Fund competition, etc, etc. This is because Israel beng a small economy, a few large families and concerns established themselves as monopolists and oligarchistd. Therefore the current issue should also be subject to privatisation and competition. If Israeli food products, including milk products are available in the UK, Europe an the USA, why shouldn’t foreign products be welcomed here. To hell with the dairy producers oligarchy, let them compete. There is obvious profiteering if a small protest results in a permanaent cut in the price of cottage cheese. I haven’t heard of a single Dairy Farm owner committing suicide yet!
As regards building the country has simply not had enough building starts for many years now, and I suspect that this is because the developers who hold (government-issued) land have not built on it, as they wait for a choked market to drive prices up. Then, and only the, will they build. The solution to this is to fine all landowners for undeveloped land an annual fine of X%. I believe that to cope with theincreasing population 40,000 building starts a year are needed. Only in 2011 has this begun to happena gain with 14,000 starts in the first 4 months of the year. But there is a decade-long deficit to cover. As regards rental, if the government wants to cap prices in the private market it can do so via taxation. Simply fix a cap (maybe different ones for different zones) and tax any exc ess over it at 150%. So if the cap is 3,000 shekels, and the landlors charges 4,000, he will pay tax pf 1,500, leaving him with only 2,500 in his hands. To enforce this, and to stop unscrupulous landlords evicting tentamts who won’t pay under the table and over the odds by cash, impose legislation that ALL rent must be paid via the post office with tax deducted at source by the tenant. Also the government or local authorities must begin building housing for rent. The long term investment funds (pension and insurance) should be given incentives to do this too. Only in Israel do they not invest in housing. Why shouldn’t 10-25% of their funds be invested in assets that produce a regular yield?
However all these solutions need long terrm vision and a holistic approach across multiple authorities (taxation, investment, housing, transport, central government, local government, banks, investment houses, etc). Which Israeli government ever looks beyond the next election or can even get fractious coalition partners to work together on such a national project?
Those sound like excellent solutions David. I especially like your ideas for capping rentals and providing incentives (or a kick up the backside) for landowners to build.
And I agree about the short-sightedness of all our governments. This has been a problem probably since the 60s if not earlier.
I think you should join the government think tank together with Anneinpt’s boss. You would sort things out quickly! As for rent -many years ago I rented & there was a tax over a certain amount and my house owner wanted me to pay a bit under the table. Only because I needed at the time to produce, for tax benefits (having been a single parent at the time), the rental agreement & copies of the cheques did he agree to rent at a lower price. When I didn’t have to produce that agreement any more the rent jumped up & it was actually cheaper to pay a mortgage than to rent.
A big problem that somehow should be solved is that years ago house buyers only had to put a 10% deposit down -which most sets of parents managed to take loans to help their children buy houses, but now you need to put 40% down so its impossible for the middle classes & poorer middle classes to find that money especially if there are more than one child to help. I know of olim who took a 10% loan as their deposit & then took a mortgage (ie 100%) loan & it was the same -maybe slightly more than rent but this is impossible nowadays so this should be brought back.
Reality, your comment about rent ties in with what DavidinPT suggested. Some sort of tax on rental above a set amount should be instituted in order to keep prices down.
As for house deposits, the minimum deposit was raised to 40% (is it that much?!) in order to STOP people rushing to take out mortgages, which was both inflating house prices and causing people to end up in financial trouble by not being able to repay those hastily-taken mortgages. Of course we know the way to hell is paved with good intentions, and this gov’t decision might be one of those good intentions. I’m not sure how the authorities would go about reducing the deposit needed while at the same time making sure people aren’t drawn in over their heads.
The truth of the matter is that the protestors, mainly secular middle class Israelis who by nature are left-leaning, are protesting against the hijacking of Israeli society by ultra-orthodox, tycoons and settlers. The silent majority are at long last speaking and their message is loud and clear. We are not willing to subsidize illegal settlement activity in the occupied territories, parasitical ultra-orthodox families or money grabbing tycoons. None of the people protesting, and I’m one of them, have any interest whatsoever in moving to an illegal settlement built to oppress others in “yehuda ve shomron” – we want the money squandered by Netanyhu, Yishai, Barak and his cronies to move from a Nablus bypass road to affordable housing in south Tel-Aviv. The reason that there are no settlers or ultra-orthodox amongst the protestors is simple – they are part of the problem. We are looking for a comprehensive sollution to Israel’s ills – moving government budgets from the ultra orthodox and settlers to housing and increasing salaries for doctors, nurses, teachers and all the other contributing elements of Israeli society. We also want increased competition in the economy so that the monopoly half a dozen companies and 10 families enjoy is broken.
Ari Ben Ami, welcome to the blog and thank you for your comment.
I disagree. I only agree that they are protesting against tycoons. I haven’t seen any protest against the Orthodox, and nor should there be. They are not the ones who have caused the housing crisis.
You have several issues all mixed up in this statement. First of all, the settlements do not oppress anyone. On the contrary, if it were not for the settlements, where would the local Palestinians find employment? Furthermore, no one is forcing you to move to the settlements, but building there should be increased to an extent that there is enough housing for people to move there, thus freeing up more housing in the center, bringing down prices at th same time.
The bypass roads serve both Israelis and Palestinians. If a bypass road is built, it is solely because the Palestinians cannot behave like human beings and refrain from shooting and otherwise attacking passing Israeli motorists. You will note that there are no bypass roads around Israeli towns for Palestinians – because they know that nothing will happen to them there, unlike an Israeli unfortunate enough to wander mistakenly into Shechem (Nablus) or Kalkilya etc.
You are wrong here. Read my post of today, how the leftists have pushed out the right-wing protestors and politicized the demonstrations. The left do not WANT the settlers and Orthodox there. They might “taint” their “pure” protest.
You are not going to find a comprehensive solution to all Israel’s ills in one fell swoop. That is a utopian dream, and the only utopias ever founded were Stalinist dictatorships – and we know how well those turned out. I agree that housing needs to be increased and the price lowered; also that salaries for the medical profession, teachers etc. have to be increased. Why does that have to be a zero-sum game against the “settlers”? Do you think the settlers are NOT teachers, doctors, medical professionals etc? Do the settlers not serve in the army? Do they not pay taxes? You obviously have never met any or you would not make such a ridiculous sweeping statement.
That is about the only correct statement in your entire comment, as Realrightwinger below has noted.
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Hmmm Ari – let me take your comment apart bit by bit ….
“The truth of the matter is that the protestors, mainly secular middle class Israelis who by nature are left-leaning, are protesting against the hijacking of Israeli society by ultra-orthodox, tycoons and settlers.”
– yes we can see that. I haven’t really noticed any kippot there in the demonstrations. Why do you say that Israeli society is hijacked by ultra-orthodox and settlers ? How have the ultra-orthodox hijacked society ? Same too for settlers ? Why do you say that – because you heard it on the News (like last night on Channel 2 – Nechemia Shtressler (is that his name) – said it was all because of Chareidim (who can purchase houses and cheap mortgages at 25% ) – says who – what does he and you base your figures on ? How do settlers get benefits ? On what building ? What tax reductions ? The only population that get tax reductions due to locations at the moment are ‘otef azza’ and perhaps Eilat (maybe some in the north ?) – So your statement is factually incorrect – except perhaps the bit about tycoons.
“We are not willing to subsidize illegal settlement activity in the occupied territories, parasitical ultra-orthodox families or money grabbing tycoons. ”
– What illegal settlement activity ? how is the govt subsidising it ? Why do you consider the territories occupied ? Didn’t you see the latest video by Danny Ayalon ? At most you can say they are disputed territories – but occupied ? NO ! Why do you consider ultra-orthodox families parasitical ? I work in a company of over 1000 people where close to 30% are ultra-orthodox ! – Do you consider them parasitical since some don’t do the army ? Do you consider the left wing ‘me’ youth who pull a 21 profile also parasitical ? Methinks you are just a fascist bigot.
“None of the people protesting, and I’m one of them, have any interest whatsoever in moving to an illegal settlement built to oppress others in “yehuda ve shomron” – we want the money squandered by Netanyhu, Yishai, Barak and his cronies to move from a Nablus bypass road to affordable housing in south Tel-Aviv. ”
– Why do you want affordable housing in South Tel Aviv ? Whats wrong with Be’er Sheva ? Rechovot ? Lod ? Ramle ? Kirya Shmoneh ? Yokneam ? Just because you are spoilt and want to live in ‘trendy’ (re-read humid/congested/stuffy/expensive) Tel-Aviv – so we (the others not demonstrating) have to subsidize it ? Go to hell !! Go get a job – fill in the lottery, take an expensive bank loan and buy the property of your dreams. I too would love to live in the middle of Manhattan – but unfortnately, I can’t afford the $10M price tag – oh well thats life
“The reason that there are no settlers or ultra-orthodox amongst the protestors is simple – they are part of the problem. ”
-Actually you are wrong. The reason they are not there – is that the see the protests for what they are… A poor attempt by the ultra-left to bring down the government – since they see there is no way to achieve this on the security platform. Originally the protests were legit – as in the Cottage Cheese protest , price of gas etc. But over the past week or so, it has been hijacked by the ultra left wing and various leftwing NGO – at achieving their true aim – ending life as we know it in Israel.
“We are looking for a comprehensive sollution to Israel’s ills – moving government budgets from the ultra orthodox and settlers to housing and increasing salaries for doctors, nurses, teachers and all the other contributing elements of Israeli society. ”
– I agree doctors, nurses and teaches should earn more. I also agree that I should be taxed less. But don’t put all the economic problems on ultra-orthodox and settlers – thats like saying lets put a little yellow star on all Ultra Orthodox and settlers – since they are the evils of society. Why do you say settlers don’t contribute to society ? On what basis ? Same for Ultra orthodox ? I think you have been indoctrinated by the ultra left wing media for too long. Tell me, who would you rather have as your neighbour ? An arab ? An ultra orthodox jew ? A settler ? Go – on answer it truthfully – and you will see what a bigot you are.
“We also want increased competition in the economy so that the monopoly half a dozen companies and 10 families enjoy is broken.”
– The only sentence I agree with in your whole post – shame you had to ruin your post with all the previous crap.
Bottom line – get a life, and begin to use your brain, as opposed to listening to the left wing media.
To Ari Ben Ami, and other like-thinkers, there was an excellent response from the commenter “Israelinurse” on a thread about Israel’s social unrest on the blog Harry’s Place, which I reproduce here more or less in full. Israelinurse lives in the Golan as far as I understand.
Many of the other comments on the post, including some more by israelinurse, are worth reading too in my opinion.
Pingback: Towards resolution of Israel’s social protests | Anne's Opinions
Thanks Anne. Just to respond to the comments – I made Aliya from Australia in order to serve in the IDF and served for 4 years in a combat unit between 1993-1997 and have since been doing reserve service. I’m not sure what a Zionist is but I certainly categorise myself as one. As you know, and unlike the majority of the people who seem to be responding, it is not possible not to serve for lengthy periods of time in the occupied territories and not be familiar with the settlers.
I find it hard to understand how anyone can miss the fact that we conquered “yehuda ve shomron” in 1967, decided not to give citizenship to any of the palestinaian inhabitants so as not to change the “demographics”, and by doing so in essence relegated them all to second class citizens with no rights. We then started building settlements which are deemed illegal by practically everyone in the world other than a minority of rightwing fanatics in Israel and some bible-bashing fundamentalists in the US. These settlements defy all logic and no reasonable person would ever decide to live in them. Oh and to save the bog standard “right wing” responses I fully accept that the same thing happened in 1948. The only difference is that we managed to get away with our 1948 conquests but not the 1967 ones. I also fully understand the Palestinians who lost homes in 1948 and want to reclaim them. My family is personally pursuing a claim in Latvia for 2 buildings they owned which were confiscated by the Nazis after they murdered my grandparents, two of my uncles and an aunt together with all of their children. I fail to see what the difference is between the two situations.
And if you really don’t understand what bothers me about the settler movement I’ll give you two small examples from real life and you can tell me what your opinion is:
One of the wonderful roles that I’ve fulfilled during my military service was to serve as babysitter for settlers visiting Sebastia. Organised by midreshet shomron these “tours” require armed IDF soldiers to escort their buses into the site and walk around with them whilst they hear invented versions about the sites history in which the helenic fortifications become part of the Israelite palaces. When you reach the ruined church to St. John the baptist the guide goes on some rant along the lines of how wonderful it is that the church is destroyed and that the ruined church symbolises that we should burn out all foreign worship from the land of Israel. For this racist speach he receives a standing ovation. I’m sorry, but if I went on a tour in Germany and heard the same thing about a synagogue I would be making sure the guide was arrested, not applausing.
A second small example – we were called out to one of the maahazim because of some disturbance. When we arrived there we discovered a young beduin boy, probably about 9 who was absolutely terrified and looked as if he had been beaten. It turned out he was bringing his herd of goats to water them in some well which was too close to the maahaz and was caught by the settlers. We basically sent the boy home and when I asked one of the settlers what was their problem with the kid, he simply laughed dismissively and told me that they wanted to send a message to the beduin that this was their well and it was now off limits and that “kol ma she hem mevinim ze coah”.
I can go on and on with stories such as these and these were only minor events, things which are never even reported.
Going back to the protest, this is a protest about equal rights and equal burdens (which applies to Jews, Palestinians, haredim etc) – if you do not believe in equal rights or equal burdens you should not be participating in the protests. The Israel that I want to live in is a just Israel, one I don’t need to feel ashamed of.
Ari, Thank you for your reply. I can see your point although I don’t agree with it.
Your view of the settlers and settlements is totally at odds with mine, which nevertheless makes neither view illegitimate. The “illegality” of the settlements is a very fragile argument. Many of the settlements were held by Israel, or rather by then-Jewish Palestine, until 1948. The Arabs conquered these areas in 1948 and thereby became Jordanian or Egyptian, there being no Palestinian entity besides the one that existed under the Mandate, i.e. the Jewish state. In 1967 these lands were captured back. I refer specifically to Gush Etzion – which was supposed to stay in Jewish hands under the partition agreement – and the Old City of Jerusalem which was supposed to be internationalized. Instead every single Jew was ethnically cleansed from both areas, whether by expulsion or murder. So in your eyes, just because these lands were “owned” by Arabs for 19 years, they have now become “historically Palestine”. This makes no political, diplomatic or historical sense.
Re your claim about 1948, if you think Israel acquired those lands illegitimately then I don’t know how you can see any part of the entire State of Israel as being legitimate – and that includes Tel Aviv, founded on Sheikh Munis, or Petach Tikva, founded on Um Malabes ro Eilat, founded on Um Rash Rash.
As to the logic or reasoning behind the building of the settlements, that is something on which we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I am of the opinion that they protect the Israeli center, you think they are a burden. Two Jews, 3 opinions. As to your stories of the settlers, they are certainly shocking and I do not condone such actions. However there are very many stories of settlers cooperating with local Arabs, of genuine friendship and aid, etc. Anyone can cherry-pick any story they want if they try hard enough.
First of all, of course I’m not insulted and I continue to respond to your comments because I think this is exactly what debate is about – the expression of differing opinions, and I accept much of what you say. Just to take a step back and explain my position on the 1948 borders – call me a cynic but in my opinion there are no ‘legitimate’ borders in the world – every border creates a division between two sides and is usually set after conflict. I wouldn’t say the US / Mexico border is any different from the Israeli / Eygptian border. The 1921 sykes-picot agreement split the middle east into a bunch of artificial countries which hadn’t existed previously. Indeed, taking a wider view nearly all nation states are a relatively recent invention. If you, look, however, at history, the 1948 war, because of the mutual ethnic cleansing (and you are absolutely right – sheikh munis, gush etzion, talabieh, tzfat and hebron are all the same) created two seperate and viable entities Israel and the Jordanian west bank containing the Palestinian territories. This is no different than the Turkish / Greek conflict which led to the creation of two modern nation states. Many Greeks lamant the loss of Asia minor and many Turks lamant the loss of Saloniki but ultimately both sides recognise that their conflict has provided them with a nation state of their own.
After the 1948 war the Israel which was created was a viable state and was accepted by the international community. The outcome of the 1967 war was that we have been left with an unviable state. It is not possible to deny 3 million people basic human rights just because we know that giving them these rights will result in changing the nature of the state we want to live in. This is identical to the restrictions placed on Jews in Europe prior to emancipation. Either we grant the Palestinians equal rights or we relinquish the territory we conquered in 1967. I know of very few Greeks and Turks who would prefer a united state in order to gain the territory each side lost and I think the same applies here. Ultimately for me I prefer living in a smaller Israel which retains its Jewish nature than a larger ‘country of all its citizens’.
Re your comment on cherry-picking certain stories. I fully accept it. Certainly it is not possible to generalize about an entire community. That said, I do not think that anyone living in ‘yehuda ve shomron’ is not aware of the larger impact of their choice on their palestinian neighbours. To use a crude example – the fact that some slave traders treated their slaves better than others didn’t make their ownership of slaves any less abhorent.
Returning to the protests which are taking place and drew 300,000 people on Saturday (including myself) – you cannot grant rights to some and not to others, I think that is the core issue at heart here. In my opinion, the only way to resolve the disatisfaction expressed by a large percentage of the population is through the ballot box. Maybe Bibi will be reelected and maybe not but whatever the outcome the people will have spoken.
Ari, sorry, I wanted to address a couple more points in your reply which I forgot last night.
First of all, the comment I quoted above from “Israelinurse” was not addressed at you personally, so I hope you were not offended by it. She posted on another blog and commented towards another commenter there, but I thought her comment addressed many of the issues you raised and which were relevant to the various comments on this blog too.
And now to continue from my previous comment from last night: You bring those shocking stories about violent or racist settlers as proof that the settlement enterprise itself is illegitimate, but I do not see the connection. Every society has its bad apples and they do not reflect on the righteousness of that society itself. If there are criminals, drunkards and rapists in Tel Aviv, does that make the city of Tel Aviv illegitimate? Of course not! Such an argument would be rightly dismissed as specious and illogical. The same judgement should be applied to the settlements. Besides which, the settler population as a whole has one of the highest participatory rates in the IDF and are an extremely productive society economically. These aspects must not be dismissed just because of political dislike.
I agree that the protest is about equal rights and burdens, but that does not extrapolate out to dismissing the legitimacy of the settlements. As to the haredim, I am not in great disagreement with you. I have my own issues with them but that will remain for another post one of these days.
oh and ‘realRightWinger’ – reading your post my gut feeling tells me that I’m probably far better educated than you are and far less brainwashed.
Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. By the way, this goes for everyone on my blog. I happen to know RRW personally. He’s extremely well-educated and broad-minded in general.
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Anne, I thought I was providing a pretty measured response to: ‘Methinks you are just a fascist bigot.’, ‘Bottom line – get a life, and begin to use your brain, as opposed to listening to the left wing media.’ ‘Just because you are spoilt and want to live in ‘trendy’ (re-read humid/congested/stuffy/expensive) Tel-Aviv – so we (the others not demonstrating) have to subsidize it ? Go to hell !! ‘ – I don’t know many people who are ‘extremely well-educated and broad minded’ who respond in this manner. In any event, I had no intention of ‘attacking’ anyone – I was pointing out that in civilized debate an educated person does not need to resort to personal attacks to pass on a message, which I guess is the same thing your saying.
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